Save articles for later

Add articles to your saved list and come back to them any time.

Eddie Jones is the Wallabies coach. I spoke to him on Thursday.

Fitz: OK, so let’s proceed as old teammates for the moment, before you take strike at the Randwick end, and I’ll steam in the Paddington end, putting some bouncers past your ears. So, mate, first thing. Seriously, are you OK?

“The only Japanese person I am talking to right now is my wife” … Eddie Jones on the persistent reports that he could defect to Japan Rugby. Credit: Steven Siewert

EJ: I’m good, mate.

Fitz: But you’ve been under fierce attack from everybody, including me, and that cannot be easy.

EJ: To be honest, the only thing I’m worried about is this: have I been committed to the team? Yes. Have I tried to do what I said I was going to do? Yes. And that’s all I can do. And if people tend to judge it another way, then so be it.

Fitz: Sure, but do you not wake in the wee hours and stare at the cracks in the ceiling, as the lights of Coogee twinkle in the distance, and say, “Jesus, how did this happen? I’ve had an unparalleled record of coaching success. And yet this whole World Cup campaign has been a f—ing disaster”?

EJ: Fitzy, you know when I took the job, I had three months with the team, and they already had a losing record. I could have kept the team as it was. And maybe, maybe, we would have struggled into the quarter-finals like 2019. I knew the Wallabies weren’t good enough. So I used the first two Tests to work out the status of the squad, and then I had to make a decision, right? And I gambled, mate, I 100 per cent gambled, and the actual difference between what we maybe could have done with a more established team and what we did do is so minimal. Now, it’s been blown out to be massive. And obviously it is, not making the quarter-finals, but the difference came down to one play in one game, against Fiji. So I don’t look back and say, “Shit, I wish I would have done this, I wish I wouldn’t have done that.” My only regret is maybe being foolish enough to take on the challenge of trying to change the team in such a short period of time.

Fitz: What about when you’re out and about, back in Australia? What has been the reaction of the rugby community to you?

EJ: Fine. I was in a Coogee chicken shop the other day and a bloke came up with his son, and whispers in my ear, “Tell the press to go and piss off.”

Eddie Jones in action in 1989.Credit: Jack Atley

Fitz: I’m right here, so you might as well tell me!

EJ: Look, there’s people who are obviously really aggrieved by Australia not making the quarter-finals and there are people who realise that, yes, we needed to change and we needed to change the squad and we brought forward young players who at the moment aren’t quite good enough! But if that’s the biggest sin I’ve committed, well, I’m happy to ride with that.

Fitz: You say you picked players who “weren’t quite good enough”. I don’t ask you to name them but was it a serious error of judgment to take the most junior, inexperienced squad in the entire World Cup, leaving behind experienced five-eighths like Quade Cooper and Bernard Foley, let alone long-time captain Michael Hooper? Looking back was that an error?

EJ: The situation reminded me of when Wayne Bennett let Wally Lewis go. No one could quite understand why, but Wally Lewis wasn’t a great role model for the rest of the team. And for those guys, I don’t think they were the right role models for the team going forward. Don’t get me wrong. They’re not bad guys. But you need guys – particularly when you’ve got a team like Australia has at the moment – you need guys who are obsessed with winning, obsessed with being good, and those three are past those stages.

Fitz: All right, in terms of being a great role model, that does seem particularly harsh on the great Michael Hooper to me, but …

EJ: I stand by it, 100 per cent. He is a great guy but the timing is not right for him.

Fitz: OK, I’ve described you as a cross between the Messiah of world rugby coaching and a human cattle prod guaranteed to get quick results out of every team you come across, but obviously this year with only two victories in total, do you question your own abilities? Do you ever think, “Shit, maybe I’ve lost it?”

EJ: I just tried to bite off too much. But this is the thing. I don’t like to amble. I’ve never been an ambler, and I could have quite easily taken the soft road, and kept the squad as it was. And we’re the ninth or 10th-ranked team in the world at the moment and the quicker we accept that and the quicker we then decide how we’re going to get out of this, the better. And we’ve been the 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th-ranked for 20 years, and progressively getting worse. But what I’m saying is I’ve set a path now for this young group of players to be good at the 2027 World Cup.

Fitz: All right, you will likely recall my own lack of rugby nous. But to reprise the central theme of my own public criticism, I could never understand how at the Wallaby trainings you had drones in the sky feeding computers, and a support person for every player, but come the actual Tests, when Fiji kicked the ball high, no one under it called out, “Mine!” And when we were down with a minute to go and had one chance – to keep the ball in hand and score a try – they kicked it! I just cannot get my head around an Eddie Jones-coached team playing like that?

EJ: I take responsibility for that. The only two things I’ve probably been guilty of is being too combative with the media, and I probably bit off more than I could chew with the team in a short period of time.

Fitz: One of my other criticisms is that you’ve been given too much control, with no selectors, and picking your own assistant coaches etc. Going forward, would you be prepared to cede any of that control?

EJ: No, no, no, not at all. That’s what I’m paid to do. But in terms of selections, I have been consulting the most intellectual rugby person in Australia to support my selection or contest them. I can’t tell you his name because I’d be breaking his confidence. You’ve played with him. He’s the brightest rugby brain in Australia. I’ve had more meetings with him than with a nominated selector, and they’re the people you want helping you, so I don’t buy into that at all.

Fitz: Would this person be inclined to wear Randwick’s myrtle green for his jim-jams?

EJ: He possibly could.

Fitz: All right, in terms of giving you resources, has Rugby Australia fulfilled its contractual obligations to you?

EJ: Well, if we can go back a step, when I was asked to have a look at Australia, I said I’d only do it on certain conditions. Because I’ve seen over 20 years the deterioration in Australian Rugby, while the rest of the world moved forward. There’s very few countries now that aren’t optimising the preparation with their top players. You can call it centralisation. But to me, it’s optimisation of your top players, with the national coach having control of the preparation of your best. You’ve seen the quality of the teams in the quarter-finals. The Wallabies can’t live with that. And the problem is our system, which is so antiquated when you compare with the rest of the world. It’s like a Toyota Corolla from decades ago, at the beginning of professionalism. You put the key in and it doesn’t quite work. The demister doesn’t quite work, and you’ve got to stick your hand out to turn right. No one would buy that, and we’ve still got an antiquated system from the start of professional rugby.

Fitz: So has Australian Rugby given you the resources to change that?

EJ: Well, they want to change it and that obviously takes money, like anything. Yeah, they want to upgrade, to go from a Corolla to a Tesla. It takes a lot of technology, a lot of money, a lot of effort and a lot of design. And in reality, I saw myself as a bit of a catalyst to help change that. But this is a six-year turnaround. It’s not a short turnaround. We haven’t won the World Cup in 24 years, and we haven’t won the Bledisloe in 22 years. Just have a look at those two stats. But to change it you need money and you need power. And in rugby, generally money drives power, not the other way around.

Fitz: And if you stay on board, are you going to get the money you need?

EJ: Well, they want to do it, [Rugby Australia chair] Hamish McLennan and [CEO] Phil Waugh, and are 100 per cent committed to doing it, but whether they can is the $64 question.

Fitz: I suspect closer to $64 million. But you say it will be a six-year turnaround. That’s not what you said a few months ago. You said, you journalistic bastards can eat it – because we’re going to win this World Cup!

EJ: Well, what would have happened if I had said, “We’re going to struggle to make the first round”?

Fitz: Sure, but quietly, did you think, “We are going to struggle in this World Cup”?

EJ: Look, I knew that, 100 per cent. You’ve only got to look at it: we’ve got one Super Rugby side that bats 40 per cent against NZ sides. And the other four bat 20 per cent. So what you’re looking for [a national side to win, with that as your base] is miracles. I still think I can produce miracles. But I wasn’t able to do it.

Fitz: How is your relationship with Hamish and Phil?

EJ: Good enough. But there’s two parts to being committed. There’s me being committed and there’s them being committed to make the changes. And I think they are, but Australia’s a difficult environment right now, how antiquated we are in our thinking and the way we do things, and we’re still so territorial.

Fitz: There are rumours abroad, that what you most want to do is to walk – with a payout from Rugby Australia. Is that true?

EJ: Definitely not. A payout has got nothing to do with it. It’s about whether we can make the change to make Australian Rugby strong. Rugby Australia has to play its part, I’ve got to play my part, and then we’re gonna decide whether we’re on the same pathway or not.

Fitz: OK. You’re in Britain now to coach the Barbarians against Wales. Where do you go from there?

EJ: My wife and I go to Okinawa in Japan, for a holiday.

Fitz: Now we’re getting close! Japan. The Herald’s Tom Decent broke the story in the Herald that before the World Cup, you’d effectively had a job interview with the Japanese Rugby Union. That’s been followed up by other media organisations around the world using sources of their own. Eddie, you’re talking to me, mate. It strains credulity, that the SMH, the ABC, the Tele, the UK Telegraph and multiple Japanese outlets, all using their own sources, have all got the story wrong. What do you say to that?

EJ: It’s false.

Fitz: I don’t think it’s false. But moving on.

EJ: There’s no named source for these stories, so there’s no credibility about the story to start with. Secondly, the president of Japan Rugby happens to be a very close associate of mine. Every time I go to Japan, I have coffee with him. We talk about rugby. Have I met Japanese representatives? Yes. But I have done that for 30 years.

Fitz: OK, so now we’re getting warmer still! When was the last time you met with or talked with a Japanese rugby official?

EJ: I think I had dinner with one, maybe February.

Fitz: [I express my dismay.] All right. So here’s the next key question. If the story is false, why not tell the Japanese media, who is saying you are a leading candidate with someone else, and that the next round of interviews is in early November – when, goodness, you’ll be in Japan, what are the chances? – that the story is false, and I am NOT available.

EJ: Because that’s not my job to do. To respond to every rumour that’s been said about me, I’d need a full-time PR person. All I can do is what I’m contracted to do, which I’ve been doing, and I’ve been 100 per cent committed to Australia.

Fitz: But you must have a fallback position? A club? A franchise? A nation? What are you going to do?

EJ: I’m so pissed off with the situation now. I’m really pissed off with what has happened. Look, I take responsibility for the bad results. But I don’t take responsibility for 20 years of decline of Australian rugby. And that’s what’s trying to be pinned on me: 20 years of decline; that I’m an unsavory character, all these sorts of things, and anyone that knows me knows that’s not the truth. Right? That’s what’s trying to be pinned on me at the moment. So I don’t really care what happens after this. But I want to make sure that we’re leaving Australian rugby in a better place. And if there’s a realisation that, yes, we need to change, then it’ll be worth what I’ve done.

Fitz: OK, let me try one last bouncer. Just say that four years from now, in the unlikely event that you are the CEO of Rugby Australia and the even more unlikely event that I am Wallaby coach … Let’s say I have been resolutely denying having been interviewed by the South African Rugby Union to take over coaching the Springboks, but you find out I have been lying through my teeth. Would you or wouldn’t you feel within your rights to sack me outright?

EJ: The only thing I’d ask: did it affect your performance? The world is about having conversations. Don’t tell me people don’t have conversations about jobs? We all know that happens? Yep? We’re not living in kindergarten. We all know that happens. Right? These discussions happen all the time. So getting back to your question, I’ll be sitting down, I’ll be saying, “Is it affecting his job performance?” If it’s not, then forget about it. Get on with the job. If it’s affecting your performance, and you’re distracted, taking time off and you’re sneaking off to places. Yes, then I’d have a problem with it.

Fitz: That sounds to me like you’re prevaricating. Back in 2015, you were with the South African Stormers, when similar rumours came out about you going to England and you said, “I’m not going to England!” “I’m not going to England!” Six days later you went to England.

EJ: [Pause.] And that was the best decision to make. Contradictions are a part of life. And all we try to do is the reasonable thing. But the only Japanese person I am talking to right now is my wife.

Fitz: So, on the head of your fine daughter, you are absolutely committed to Australian Rugby for the next four years?

EJ: If my commitment is matched by Rugby Australia’s commitment. I cannot be clearer – if we want to win, things must change. Right now, if you’re any good at rugby, you can get a scholarship at a private school, then you can play for a Super Rugby team and not perform and get picked for Australia. And that’s the sort of cattle we’re dealing with, right? That doesn’t produce World Cup winners.

Fitz: Lock it in, Eddie.

Most Viewed in Sport

From our partners

Source: Read Full Article